TOMORROW is the deadline to oppose ATF proposed rule change

If it doesn't fit in any of the other forums, post it here!
User avatar
Odessaman
Posts: 411
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:50 pm
Location: NW Hillsborough County

TOMORROW is the deadline to oppose ATF proposed rule change

Post by Odessaman »

I'm sorry this is so long, but it's extremely important to all of us - please take the time to read and take action.

ATF has proposed a "rule change" to "clarify" what Congress meant by "engaged in the business" of selling firearms. If implemented and enforced as written, persons who sell a single gun (or even demonstrate a "willingness" to sell a gun) in a private transaction could be presumed to be "in the business" of selling firearms and be required to have an FFL. This is unadulterated horseshit, pure and simple.

There are numerous serious problems with the proposed rule.
First, ATF is unconstitutionally usurping Congress's sole authority to legislate;
Second, statutory terms that are clear and unambiguous based on their common, everyday usage (such as "engaged in the business") do not require judicial or bureaucratic "clarification";
Third, the proposed rule creates more ambiguities than it resolves;
Fourth, the proposed rule change omits "protection of self, family and property" from the list of acceptable purposes that define a "personal firearms collection," thereby violating the Second Amendment.

IMPORTANT - the comments period for voicing support or opposition for this change ends TOMORROW, Thursday, December 7th, at midnight. You can read the proposed rule change and submit comments at the Federal Register:

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... n-firearms

The following are excerpts from the published document:
Thus, even a single firearm transaction, or offer to engage in a transaction, when combined with other evidence, may be sufficient to require a license.
What does ATF mean by "other evidence"?
https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2023-19177/p-105
Rather than establishing a minimum threshold number of firearms purchased or sold, this rule proposes to clarify that, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, a person will be presumed to be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms when the person:

(1) sells or offers for sale firearms, and also represents to potential buyers or otherwise demonstrates a willingness and ability to purchase and sell additional firearms; [63]

(2) spends more money or its equivalent on purchases of firearms for the purpose of resale than the person's reported taxable gross inome during the applicable period of time; [64]

(3) repetitively purchases for the purpose of resale, or sells or offers for sale firearms— [that are illegal under other provisions of law]

(4) repetitively sells or offers for sale firearms—

(A) within 30 days after they were purchased; [70]

(B) that are new, or like new in their original packaging; [71]

or

(C) that are of the same or similar kind (i.e., make/manufacturer, model, caliber/gauge, and action) and type (i.e., the classification of a firearm as a rifle, shotgun, revolver, pistol, frame, receiver, machinegun, silencer, destructive device, or other firearm);
[Emphasis added].

As rationale for presumptions (B) and (C) above, ATF makes the ludicrous and unsupported declaration that: "persons who repetitively sell firearms in new condition or in like-new condition in their original packaging, or firearms of the same kind and type, are not likely to be selling such firearms from a personal collection." Apparently, they have never interviewed collectors who told them that firearms in like new condition and in their original packaging are more desirable to other collectors, and that some collectors focus only on one kind or type of firearm, such as Colt Single Action revolvers, German Lugers, or Winchester lever action rifles. All of these individuals would be subject to this new rule if they sold even one example from their collection to another collector.

https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2023-19177/p-131
Any one or a combination of the circumstances above gives rise to a presumption in civil and administrative proceedings that the person is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms and must be licensed under the GCA. The activities set forth in these rebuttable presumptions are not exhaustive of the conduct that may show that, or be considered in determining whether, a person is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. Further, as noted above, while the criteria may be useful to courts in criminal cases when instructing juries regarding permissible inferences, the presumptions outlined above shall not apply to criminal cases.
{Emphasis added].

If the ATF's criteria were applied to other items of personal property, anyone who sells a vehicle to upgrade to a newer or different model is "in the business" of dealing in motor vehicles. If you sell couch at a yard sale because you replaced it with a newer one, you are a furniture dealer.

https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2023-19177/p-154

Separate from the presumptions establishing whether a person is "engaged in the business" are factors giving rise to a presumption that a person has intent to earn a profit. The first one is a direct attack on web-based marketplaces, like Armslist, where private individuals list their personal forearms for sale.
the proposed rule provides that, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, a person is presumed to have the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” when the person: (1) advertises, markets, or otherwise promotes a firearms business (e.g., advertises or posts firearms for sale, including on any website, establishes a website for selling or offering for sale their firearms, makes available business cards, or tags firearms with sales prices), regardless of whether the person incurs expenses or only promotes the business informally; . . .
Again, by the ATF's logic, any person who lists a car, a boat, or a toaster for sale on Craigslist thereby has the intent to "predominantly earn a profit."

There are narrow exceptions to the proposed rule. For example:
https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2023-19177/p-153
The statutory definition of “engaged in the business” excludes “a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.”
Trouble is, what you think of as your "collection" may not be one, under ATF's restrictive definition:
Specifically, this rule proposes to define “personal collection,” “personal collection of firearms,” and “personal firearms collection” as “personal firearms that a person accumulates for study, comparison, exhibition, or for a hobby (e.g., noncommercial, recreational activities for personal enjoyment such as hunting, or skeet, target, or competition shooting).” This reflects a common definition of the terms “collection” and “hobby.” [85] The phrase “or for a hobby” was adopted from 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(C), which excludes from the definition of “engaged in the business” firearms acquired “for” a hobby. Also expressly excluded from the definition of “personal collection” is “any firearm purchased for resale or made with the predominant intent to earn a profit” because of their inherently commercial nature. 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(C).
I note that "personal protection and protection of family and property" is NOT included in the proposed definition of "personal collection." This is the very essence of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution - how can THAT not be a legitimate purpose for a personal collection of firearms?

If adopted, this rule change will subject any unlicensed person who sells even one firearm to the penalties of dealing in firearms without an FFL. It is intended to discourage law-abiding citizens from freely exercising their Constitutional rights, to place their personal property at risk of forfeiture, and to further add to ATF's illegal database of firearms ownership in this country.

Please take the time to visit the Federal Register and submit your opposition to this bureaucratic nonsense BEFORE midnight tomorrow. Or, go to the Gun Owners of American website, and submit one of their prepared responses in opposition. https://www.gunowners.org/we-need-you-t ... o-the-atf/
User avatar
Odessaman
Posts: 411
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:50 pm
Location: NW Hillsborough County

Post by Odessaman »

Here's my comment to the ATF's proposed rule "clarifying" the meaning of "engaged in the business" of dealing in firearms. I'm not posting this to say "hey, lookey what I did," but rather to let you know my concerns if this rule is implemented.
I oppose implementation of the proposed rule change. Congress has clearly and adequately defined “engaged in the business” in 18 U.S.C. § 921. A basic rule of statutory interpretation is that terms that are clear and unambiguous do not require judicial or bureaucratic "clarification."

18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C) states: “The term ‘engaged in the business’ means - . . .as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business to predominantly earn a profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.” (emphasis added).

Yet, ATF proposes to eliminate the “as a regular course of trade or business” and “repretitive purchase and resale” elements of the definition provided by Congress – why?

Section II.D. of the Proposed Rule states: “Thus, even a single firearm transaction, or offer to engage in a transaction, when combined with other evidence, may be sufficient to require a license.” This is clearly the ATF’s purpose – to make even a single instance of the sale of a piece of private property subject to government licensure – which makes the activity too costly and burdensome for the average law-abiding citizen, imposing a chilling effect on the free exercise of 2nd Amendment rights. If Congress intended a single firearm transaction to constitute being “in the business” of dealing in firearms, then Congress could have said so, rather than stating “repetitive purchase and resale of firearms,” in its definition.

Under the proposed rule, there is a “presumption” of being engaged in the business when a person “spends more money or its equivalent on purchases of firearms for the purpose of resale than the person's reported taxable gross income during the applicable period of time”;  repetitively sells or offers for sale firearms that are new, or like new in their original packaging; or that are of the same or similar kind (i.e., make/manufacturer, model, caliber/gauge, and action) and type (i.e., the classification of a firearm as a rifle, shotgun, revolver, pistol, frame, receiver, machinegun, silencer, destructive device, or other firearm).”

Many collectors are retired and have little “reported taxable gross income.” It would not be hard for a retiree to spend more on firearms in a year than they report in taxable income. ATF makes the ludicrous declaration that: "persons who repetitively sell firearms in new condition or in like-new condition in their original packaging, or firearms of the same kind and type, are not likely to be selling such firearms from a personal collection." Any collector will confirm that firearms in like new condition and in their original packaging are more collectible, and some collectors focus only on one kind or type of firearm, such as Colt Single Action revolvers, German Lugers, or Winchester lever action rifles. All such individuals would need an FFL if they sold even one example from their collection to another collector – even if at a loss.

ATF’s proposed definition of “engaged in the business” is so unduly broad hat no rational person would apply the same criteria to other categories of personal property and consider a single transaction to be presumptive evidence of being “engaged in the business.” Under ATF's proposed criteria, anyone who sells a private vehicle to upgrade to a new or different one would be "in the business" of dealing in cars. If a person sold a couch at a yard sale because they replaced it with a new one, they would be a furniture dealer. This is ridiculous, and a clear over-reach of authority that defies common sense and logic.

Also, any person who lists a car, a boat, or a toaster for sale on Craigslist or any other online marketplace thereby has the intent to "predominantly earn a profit." That is absurd, and not based in fact or real world experience.

Of the few exclusions to the presumption of “engaged in the business,” ATF's restrictive definition of “personal collection” found in Section II.E., is problematic. Notably, "personal protection and protection of family and property" is NOT included in the proposed definition of "personal collection." This is the very essence of the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution - how can THAT not be a legitimate purpose for a personal collection of firearms?

This proposed rule is unconstitutional, overreaching and a prime example of why trust in government is declining. This proposed rule must NOT be implemented.
Molivo
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:55 pm

Post by Molivo »

My following opinion is based on 20 years in the business.

ATF is gearing up to go after private sale dealers. They have been for the last couple years. The new 4473 questions are more pointed at that. I do gunshows almost every weekend. 99% of the time you see the same private guys set up there, "selling their private collection". And they've been doing it for multiple years. Not to mention the isle hawks who walk around buying privately in the isles from people walking into the show, just to turn around and try and resell the gun they just bought to make a quick buck. They play by a different set of rules then licensed dealers have to. They can sell to anybody they want, long as they claim it's from their personal collections. They don't have to do background checks, charge or pay tax, etc

Frankly, if you want to be a gun dealer, get an FFL. If you don't want to get an FFL, don't be a gun dealer. I spend an absurd amount of time, effort and money to be able to legally engage in the business,and keep within compliance of ATFs regulations. I'm not big on more rules and regulations from the government, but I am big on level playing fields. These guys could be licensed dealers and do it the legal way if they wanted to, they don't want to...because then they'd have to do background checks, maintain paperwork, pay taxes, etc . Reality is they are to blame for when this impacts the guy who DOES just want to liquidate his collection one day and gets caught up in the same net with the rest of the bad fish.

If you want to buy and sell cars, that requires a license and there are regulations. If you want to open a restaurant, that requires a license and there are regulations. I can't think of any business offhand that doesn't require some government oversight via licensing. I know my response is going to irk a couple people here in the board, but take a moment and consider what industry you work in and how unlicensed persons engaged in that business impact you ...constructions a great example.

Really it's all a moot point. Their end goal is universal background checks and once that becomes the law of the land private sales will be a thing of the past anyway, and private dealers will essentially be out of business over night. And once again as is typical in life, a couple bad apples will ruin it for everyone once again.
User avatar
REDinFL
Posts: 1427
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:56 pm
Location: Largo

Post by REDinFL »

Matt is right.

As an old example, anyone remember Billy here in the Tampa area? Walked the aisles at gun shows, etc. Was warned verbally by ATF. Cooled it for a few months. Then was walking the aisles again. Then a year in Club Fed.
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a Single Star.
User avatar
Odessaman
Posts: 411
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:50 pm
Location: NW Hillsborough County

Post by Odessaman »

Hey, I agree with Matt as well - we all recognize "those guys" who should be licensed and required to jump through the same hoops Matt and other legitimate dealers do.

My issue is that this rule is written so broadly that a single private sale or trade can raise a "presumption" of "being engaged in the business" and expose the seller to the same penalties for dealing w/o a license as the repeat offenders face. There's a difference between being in business and having the freedom to acquire and dispose of personal property from time to time, and ATF is attempting to eliminate that distinction.

Does selling your car on Craigslist make you an automobile dealer? Does participating in your neighborhood's twice a year community garage sale make you a dealer in used clothing and tacky old knick-knacks? Does advertising either of these on the internet raise a presumption you're doing it to make a profit? Of course not. But, under ATF's new rule, evidence of a single gun sale or trade even if it's at a loss to you raises the presumptions that you're engaging in business for profit and that therefore you're an unlicensed dealer. Then the burden is on you to hire a lawyer and try to rebut those presumptions. If you can't afford a lawyer, ATF will likely be happy to offer an agreement to you whereby you surrender all firearms and ammunition to them and accept permanent "prohibited person" status and they'll leave you alone.
Molivo
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:55 pm

Post by Molivo »

Odessaman wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:34 am Hey, I agree with Matt as well - we all recognize "those guys" who should be licensed and required to jump through the same hoops Matt and other legitimate dealers do.
We all recognize them, yet here they are...At show after show, Or posting on FGT, even here on the forums. I actually asked an ATF rep why there are people who get away with this for so long, some of them literally for decades. The answer was essentially the cases are incredibly hard to make and have it stick in court because of the vagueness of "private sale" laws/regulations. Some of you might remember (ill leave names out" a couple miami police officers who got busted for being unlicensed dealers. They would show up to a show, with 200-300 guns on 7-12 tables depending on the show they were at. They did it for awhile, got busted, and went to prison. I remember reading one of them was found with well over 100k in cash at his house, and several hundred guns. I knew someone who bought a gun from them. It was simple as him walking up, pointing out the gun he wanted, handing them the cash, and walking away. At the time I don't even believe they were asking for ID.

As per what defines a dealer in my opinion, I'll give a couple examples...Since you mentioned cars, if you see a car on facebook for 2500, knowing even on its worst day it sells for 5k, and you buy it and repost it for 5k...To me, that makes you an unlicensed dealer. Same rules apply with guns. Buying it at a perceived lower value for the purpose of resaling for a profit is engaging in the business...The whole problem with the "private sale" thing is it relies on the honor system...Its assumed your private selling because your bored with it, don't want it anymore, want to upgrade, etc. However when you have guys setting up tables, quite literally, at every show, buying stuff, sticking a price tag on it soon as the seller walks away, etc., Where is the honor? They aren't buying/selling to enhance their collection, they are running an unlicensed business. And frankly, they give the entire 2A Crowd a bad reputation because those who do things the right way get lumped in with the ones who do not; And it's giving those frothing at the mouth for a reason to demand universal background checks all the reason in the world to eventually get it. Frankly it is par for the course in every industry. Unlicensed contractors hurt licensed contractors business. As I said before I am sure there is an example of it in every industry.

As far as the whole single instance making you an unlicensed dealer thing goes, I sincerely doubt that is going to be their focal point. ATF is a woefully underbudgeted/understaffed agency that frankly has bigger fish to fry then to chase a guy who bough A gun and sold it. I will say this; Every person who sold a gun they bought at a profit for the first time probably considered how relatively easy it is, and next thing you know they want to be the next Yuri Orlov (Lord of War movie reference :lol: ).

Funny story about a former member of this board (who is long since dead and gone so I am not concerned about letting the info out now). Many years ago, he wanted to sell a gun (a glock 17) at his local gun show. He wasn't well versed on Florida law, so he called me asking what he had to do. I recommended having a licensed dealer do a transfer there, or at least getting a comprehensive bill of sale to cover his butt. Fast forward six months after selling, an alphabet agency (I think secret service but not 100% on that) showed up at his door wanting to know where the gun went. Turns out it ended up in south america, and was used to assassinate a dignitary there. Thankfully he took my advice and had a bill of sale, which made it the next guy (the buyers) problem. I remember him calling me after it happened thanking me for advising him to get a bill of sale, because it frankly saved his tail end.

But I digress. Those of you who know me know I am very pro 2nd amendment, but I am also a realist; Unlicensed firearms dealing puts all of us and our favorite hobby at risk; Don't look at the people doing this as martyrs, look at them as the opportunist they are who are going to ruin it for everyone.
wjbarricklow
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:05 am
Location: Stuart

Post by wjbarricklow »

As per what defines a dealer in my opinion, I'll give a couple examples...Since you mentioned cars, if you see a car on facebook for 2500, knowing even on its worst day it sells for 5k, and you buy it and repost it for 5k...To me, that makes you an unlicensed dealer. Same rules apply with guns. Buying it at a perceived lower value for the purpose of resaling for a profit is engaging in the business..
Yeah, but that's not the way it works. If you buy or sell more than 3 cars in a calendar year in Florida, you need a license. No matter how long you had the car or whether you made money on it.

The proposed ATF rule, among other criteria, says that if you advertise firearms you are engaged in business and need a license. So I post a gun on FSN or on a bulletin board at the local range, and I need a license.

I get that they need to draw a line. I would have thought the line would be something like x# of firearms per year, $x of firearms per year. Not advertising one single gun if the ATF feels like prosecuting it.

Essentially they're creating universal background checks without being able to enforce it. And the individual agents might be going for the "unlicensed dealers", but that could be done without making virtually every gun sale/transfer outside of a dealer illegal.
Based on this decades-long body of experience, the proposed rule provides that, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, a person is presumed to have the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” when the person: (1) advertises, markets, or otherwise promotes a firearms business (

e.g.,

advertises or posts firearms for sale, including on any website, establishes a website for selling or offering for sale their firearms, makes available business cards, or tags firearms with sales prices), regardless of whether the person incurs expenses or only promotes the business informally; [94]

(2) purchases, rents, or otherwise secures or sets aside permanent or temporary physical space to display or store firearms they offer for sale, including part or all of a business premises, table or space at a gun show, or display case; [95]

(3) makes or maintains records, in any form, to document, track, or calculate profits and losses from firearms purchases and sales; [96]

(4) purchases or otherwise secures merchant services as a business (

e.g.,

credit card transaction services, digital wallet for business) through which the person makes or offers to make payments for firearms transactions; [97]

(5) formally or informally purchases, hires, or otherwise secures business security services (

e.g.,

a central station-monitored security system registered to a business,[98]

or guards for security [99]

) to

protect business assets or transactions that include firearms; (6) formally or informally establishes a business entity, trade name, or online business account, including an account using a business name on a social media or other website, through which the person makes or offers to make firearms transactions; [100]

(7) secures or applies for a State or local business license to purchase for resale or to sell merchandise that includes firearms; or (8) purchases a business insurance policy, including any riders that cover firearms inventory.[101]

Any of these nonexclusive, firearms-business-related activities justifies a rebuttable presumption that the person has the requisite intent to predominantly earn a profit from reselling or disposing of firearms.
N4KVE
Posts: 981
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:59 pm
Location: PALM BEACH

Post by N4KVE »

“ATF has proposed a "rule change" to "clarify" what Congress meant by "engaged in the business" of selling firearms. If implemented and enforced as written, persons who sell a single gun (or even demonstrate a "willingness" to sell a gun) in a private transaction could be presumed to be "in the business" of selling firearms and be required to have an FFL. This is unadulterated horseshit, pure and simple”.

I asked the ATF guys at the WPB show yesterday if this was true. One guy laughed so hard I thought he was going to choke on his lunch. Like others have mentioned, he said it’s about the guys who sell “their personal collection” week after week year, after year. And if that was going to be what they are planning to do, why would he deny it? Wouldn’t he just say that’s how it’ll be in the future? GARY.
George W
Posts: 481
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:47 pm
Location: Plant City, Florida

Post by George W »

N4KVE wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:53 pm “ATF has proposed a "rule change" to "clarify" what Congress meant by "engaged in the business" of selling firearms. If implemented and enforced as written, persons who sell a single gun (or even demonstrate a "willingness" to sell a gun) in a private transaction could be presumed to be "in the business" of selling firearms and be required to have an FFL. This is unadulterated horseshit, pure and simple”.

I asked the ATF guys at the WPB show yesterday if this was true. One guy laughed so hard I thought he was going to choke on his lunch. Like others have mentioned, he said it’s about the guys who sell “their personal collection” week after week year, after year. And if that was going to be what they are planning to do, why would he deny it? Wouldn’t he just say that’s how it’ll be in the future? GARY.
You can poll every single ATF agent on the planet and have all of them pledge to never go after anyone except for "the guys who sell “their personal collection” week after week year, after year." It doesn't matter what the intent is, if you give them the latitude to go after anyone they see fit with an ambiguous ruling, they will use it to go after anyone they deem necessary to make their quota, a headline, or a budget increase. I can think of no time in history where a government had the authority to do something, but didn't use it. Every law. Every rule. Every minor tweak that government wants must be opposed. They will take a mile when given an inch.
User avatar
TACC
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:49 pm

Post by TACC »

Exactly, If there was a way they could be dissolved , that would be a positive step.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Post Reply