I am not well versed in this law/regulation.
Basically Biden says this makes unlicensed dealers get background checks for gun sales at gun shows.
Isn't it illegal to be an unlicensed dealer?
I am not talking about the guy that sells a couple guns at a gun show.
We all know there are non FFLs that bring 50-100-even 200 guns per show as a "hobby" selling 20-30 and buying as many more.
But, can't anyone selling a gun at a gun show now be considered an unlicensed dealer?
How would one guy selling a gun to someone even be able to call in a background check if he wanted to?
The ruling seems vague and may well be shot down by the courts but my ignorance is vast on the what and what not so what say the hive?
Gun Show Loophole closed? What does it mean?
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NorincoKid
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I think ATF will get its peepee slapped on this one too. Just might take awhile.
Just like they did on the "braced pistols are now SBR's" rule
And the "FRT triggers are now machineguns" rule
And the "anything that looks like a gun is now a receiver" rule.
Congress (real law) already defines what "engaged in the business" means.
Just like they did on the "braced pistols are now SBR's" rule
And the "FRT triggers are now machineguns" rule
And the "anything that looks like a gun is now a receiver" rule.
Congress (real law) already defines what "engaged in the business" means.
To quote myself from December of 2023…
“My following opinion is based on 20 years in the business.
ATF is gearing up to go after private sale dealers. They have been for the last couple years. The new 4473 questions are more pointed at that. I do gunshows almost every weekend. 99% of the time you see the same private guys set up there, "selling their private collection". And they've been doing it for multiple years. Not to mention the isle hawks who walk around buying privately in the isles from people walking into the show, just to turn around and try and resell the gun they just bought to make a quick buck. They play by a different set of rules then licensed dealers have to. They can sell to anybody they want, long as they claim it's from their personal collections. They don't have to do background checks, charge or pay tax, etc
Frankly, if you want to be a gun dealer, get an FFL. If you don't want to get an FFL, don't be a gun dealer. I spend an absurd amount of time, effort and money to be able to legally engage in the business,and keep within compliance of ATFs regulations. I'm not big on more rules and regulations from the government, but I am big on level playing fields. These guys could be licensed dealers and do it the legal way if they wanted to, they don't want to...because then they'd have to do background checks, maintain paperwork, pay taxes, etc . Reality is they are to blame for when this impacts the guy who DOES just want to liquidate his collection one day and gets caught up in the same net with the rest of the bad fish.
If you want to buy and sell cars, that requires a license and there are regulations. If you want to open a restaurant, that requires a license and there are regulations. I can't think of any business offhand that doesn't require some government oversight via licensing. I know my response is going to irk a couple people here in the board, but take a moment and consider what industry you work in and how unlicensed persons engaged in that business impact you ...constructions a great example.
Really it's all a moot point. Their end goal is universal background checks and once that becomes the law of the land private sales will be a thing of the past anyway, and private dealers will essentially be out of business over night. And once again as is typical in life, a couple bad apples will ruin it for everyone once again.”
That being reqouted and all, I’ll say this…this is pretty much exactly what I said was coming. I’m not clairvoyant. I just know how to read. The 4473 has changed several times, adding more precise verbiage, ensuring the buyer is buying to own, not buying to resell. Those who make the claim that there’s no such thing as “private sale dealers” are living in lala land. And they are the ones who are about to screw it up for the actual collectors who really do just want to enjoy the sport/hobby. My best guess, when the deadline hits, atf is going to go hard and fast to make examples out of the worst offenders (who they’ve probably been eyeing for years). After that, the smart ones will either stop, get Ffls, or try to keep doing what they are doing more carefully until they get busted. If it stands, Gunshows as we know them are about to change drastically.
And if you think this is the last stop for the train, it isn’t. It’s universal background checks.
“My following opinion is based on 20 years in the business.
ATF is gearing up to go after private sale dealers. They have been for the last couple years. The new 4473 questions are more pointed at that. I do gunshows almost every weekend. 99% of the time you see the same private guys set up there, "selling their private collection". And they've been doing it for multiple years. Not to mention the isle hawks who walk around buying privately in the isles from people walking into the show, just to turn around and try and resell the gun they just bought to make a quick buck. They play by a different set of rules then licensed dealers have to. They can sell to anybody they want, long as they claim it's from their personal collections. They don't have to do background checks, charge or pay tax, etc
Frankly, if you want to be a gun dealer, get an FFL. If you don't want to get an FFL, don't be a gun dealer. I spend an absurd amount of time, effort and money to be able to legally engage in the business,and keep within compliance of ATFs regulations. I'm not big on more rules and regulations from the government, but I am big on level playing fields. These guys could be licensed dealers and do it the legal way if they wanted to, they don't want to...because then they'd have to do background checks, maintain paperwork, pay taxes, etc . Reality is they are to blame for when this impacts the guy who DOES just want to liquidate his collection one day and gets caught up in the same net with the rest of the bad fish.
If you want to buy and sell cars, that requires a license and there are regulations. If you want to open a restaurant, that requires a license and there are regulations. I can't think of any business offhand that doesn't require some government oversight via licensing. I know my response is going to irk a couple people here in the board, but take a moment and consider what industry you work in and how unlicensed persons engaged in that business impact you ...constructions a great example.
Really it's all a moot point. Their end goal is universal background checks and once that becomes the law of the land private sales will be a thing of the past anyway, and private dealers will essentially be out of business over night. And once again as is typical in life, a couple bad apples will ruin it for everyone once again.”
That being reqouted and all, I’ll say this…this is pretty much exactly what I said was coming. I’m not clairvoyant. I just know how to read. The 4473 has changed several times, adding more precise verbiage, ensuring the buyer is buying to own, not buying to resell. Those who make the claim that there’s no such thing as “private sale dealers” are living in lala land. And they are the ones who are about to screw it up for the actual collectors who really do just want to enjoy the sport/hobby. My best guess, when the deadline hits, atf is going to go hard and fast to make examples out of the worst offenders (who they’ve probably been eyeing for years). After that, the smart ones will either stop, get Ffls, or try to keep doing what they are doing more carefully until they get busted. If it stands, Gunshows as we know them are about to change drastically.
And if you think this is the last stop for the train, it isn’t. It’s universal background checks.
This road to "universal background checks" has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with control and the ablity for them to quiench their never ending greed. Just as the government can't stand the gig economy escaping the federal vig, they can't stand the idea that a dollar may change hands and they dont get their piece of it. And I mean every time. Every time a car, bat, RV, anything with a title that tax was paid on it when bought new changes owners the government gets a piece. Now its clothes, furniture, toys, electronics, you name it. Their hunger to stick their hands further and further down our pockets is insatiable. They didnt hire 80,000 new IRS agents to go after millionaires and billionaires. They hired them to shake down every person who has a sideline that might make them a little something off their ledger a fiscal colonoscopy.
Matt hits it on the nail and Lil responds as to the real reason. They want control and they want to steal every dime they can all while claiming it is for our own good
The chant of the Nazis: Fur unsere Sicherheit. Or as the Gestapo would say when they knocked on the door looking for enemies of the state (Jews); "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear". (always a hoot when a cop pulls you over and wants to illegally search your vehicle and uses that Gestapo line)
Matt is also right the few big obvious unlicensed dealers will speed this process up but I am guessing they will also go after some smaller sellers just to put the fear of Biden in all gun owners
I will sometimes get an itch to try something different like I bought some 40 cal Sigs and true to form I buy 4 or 5 to see what I like then resell the others off my Melbourne Gun Show table (Primarily reloading supplies and accessories and some times ammo, many here know me) so now I want to get rid of the ones I don't like as much. Matters not I am selling them for what I paid nor does it matter what is true cuz if ATF wants to make an example out of me they can simple do as they please and say spend tens of thousands to beat them, they get paid either way.
If this is not overturned I will simply not have a gun on my table and only sell off what I don't want online shipping through an FFL to an FFL. I am not looking to see how close to the line I can get I am looking to stay far from the line
Matt wants to level the playing field (You had no idea about private sales before you decided to be an FFL??? Seriously???)
Same with states and online taxing. local businesses just wanted to level the playing field cuz its government's right to find any and all reasons to fxxk us over if local businesses can force you into their place. They are saying: I am against government intrusion unless I can make some money then I am all for it
What Matt is not seeing is in being right it won't stop there. They want to eliminate all gun transfers they don't know about to enact a defacto registration but after that they want Matt gone and a disarmed populous.
And we will be happy because it is : Fur unsere Sicherheit
The chant of the Nazis: Fur unsere Sicherheit. Or as the Gestapo would say when they knocked on the door looking for enemies of the state (Jews); "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear". (always a hoot when a cop pulls you over and wants to illegally search your vehicle and uses that Gestapo line)
Matt is also right the few big obvious unlicensed dealers will speed this process up but I am guessing they will also go after some smaller sellers just to put the fear of Biden in all gun owners
I will sometimes get an itch to try something different like I bought some 40 cal Sigs and true to form I buy 4 or 5 to see what I like then resell the others off my Melbourne Gun Show table (Primarily reloading supplies and accessories and some times ammo, many here know me) so now I want to get rid of the ones I don't like as much. Matters not I am selling them for what I paid nor does it matter what is true cuz if ATF wants to make an example out of me they can simple do as they please and say spend tens of thousands to beat them, they get paid either way.
If this is not overturned I will simply not have a gun on my table and only sell off what I don't want online shipping through an FFL to an FFL. I am not looking to see how close to the line I can get I am looking to stay far from the line
Matt wants to level the playing field (You had no idea about private sales before you decided to be an FFL??? Seriously???)
Same with states and online taxing. local businesses just wanted to level the playing field cuz its government's right to find any and all reasons to fxxk us over if local businesses can force you into their place. They are saying: I am against government intrusion unless I can make some money then I am all for it
What Matt is not seeing is in being right it won't stop there. They want to eliminate all gun transfers they don't know about to enact a defacto registration but after that they want Matt gone and a disarmed populous.
And we will be happy because it is : Fur unsere Sicherheit
I find the term “unlicensed dealer” to be an oxymoron. If you don’t have a FFL “licence”, you’re not a dealer. If you do have a FFL “licence” you’re a dealer. Nothing wrong with walking around a show selling unwanted items. GARY.
^^^^^^ This^^^^^^^
When Biden says unlicensed dealer need to do background checks that is like saying crack dealers need to issue prescriptions and call them in.
Unlicensed gun dealer are breaking the law and doing a call in is the same as turning themselves in for it.
I am referring (unlicensed FFLs) to the guys that have dozens to hundreds of guns selling and buying every show but Biden IMO means anyone that is not an FFL that sells a gun to his neighbor needs to do a background check which is what Matt was referring to as the intended end game
The way the tax man is trying to put a big on private transactions is really a value added tax (VAT) popular in Europe. Taxing something that has already been taxed is insidious. If a item changes hands enough times the tax paid on it could and does well exceed the price paid when orginally purchased.
In firearms forcing transfer fees and a VAT works out to a extra 12.5% on a 500$ purchase. If that gun changes hands 8 times the VAT and transfer matches the orginal price. Hence, goverment have reaped the cost of a new item and have done absolutely nothing of value.
The VAT is glaring apparent in the classic car market. A early C series Corvette sales tax now far exceeds its orginal sticker price and the tax man has done zero to add value to anything. And dont you dare try to slip anything past the government bean counters unless you have the wealth to fight them. The slick Willie's with firepower will show up and put your pled ass in its place faster than Biden will sniff your prepubescent daughter.
In firearms forcing transfer fees and a VAT works out to a extra 12.5% on a 500$ purchase. If that gun changes hands 8 times the VAT and transfer matches the orginal price. Hence, goverment have reaped the cost of a new item and have done absolutely nothing of value.
The VAT is glaring apparent in the classic car market. A early C series Corvette sales tax now far exceeds its orginal sticker price and the tax man has done zero to add value to anything. And dont you dare try to slip anything past the government bean counters unless you have the wealth to fight them. The slick Willie's with firepower will show up and put your pled ass in its place faster than Biden will sniff your prepubescent daughter.
If you buy something under value, knowing its worth more, and immediately put it up for sale for a profit, and do it repetitively, but aren't licensed to do it, what would you call that?
Not sure where half that came from...But we'll skip debating that.Wulfmann wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:24 am Matt hits it on the nail and Lil responds as to the real reason. They want control and they want to steal every dime they can all while claiming it is for our own good
The chant of the Nazis: Fur unsere Sicherheit. Or as the Gestapo would say when they knocked on the door looking for enemies of the state (Jews); "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear". (always a hoot when a cop pulls you over and wants to illegally search your vehicle and uses that Gestapo line)
Matt is also right the few big obvious unlicensed dealers will speed this process up but I am guessing they will also go after some smaller sellers just to put the fear of Biden in all gun owners
I will sometimes get an itch to try something different like I bought some 40 cal Sigs and true to form I buy 4 or 5 to see what I like then resell the others off my Melbourne Gun Show table (Primarily reloading supplies and accessories and some times ammo, many here know me) so now I want to get rid of the ones I don't like as much. Matters not I am selling them for what I paid nor does it matter what is true cuz if ATF wants to make an example out of me they can simple do as they please and say spend tens of thousands to beat them, they get paid either way.
If this is not overturned I will simply not have a gun on my table and only sell off what I don't want online shipping through an FFL to an FFL. I am not looking to see how close to the line I can get I am looking to stay far from the line
Matt wants to level the playing field (You had no idea about private sales before you decided to be an FFL??? Seriously???)
Same with states and online taxing. local businesses just wanted to level the playing field cuz its government's right to find any and all reasons to fxxk us over if local businesses can force you into their place. They are saying: I am against government intrusion unless I can make some money then I am all for it
What Matt is not seeing is in being right it won't stop there. They want to eliminate all gun transfers they don't know about to enact a defacto registration but after that they want Matt gone and a disarmed populous.
And we will be happy because it is : Fur unsere Sicherheit
You can call it what you want, You do "a" gunshow once every few months. I do them 3-4 times a month, every month. If your upset that private sales are slowly coming to an end, don't by upset with me, the people you should be upset with are the people who caused it; If you don't want the enemy to shoot at you, you don't start by giving them the ammunition
As far as "leveling the playing field", what playing field are you talking about? Selling guns? Because I am pretty sure I do considerably more volume then they do.