Florida Shooters Network

tector wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:47 am

mikem wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:32 am And as vocally as you guys are shouting down the idea that this is about racism, I'm surprised no one is speaking out against ACTUAL racist videos and confessed racist sentiments.

It this who we are as gun owners?

Well my point was directed to all sides using "race". I generally don't bother watching videos posted by certain people here, so I saw none of the videos you reference. And I generally skip past long-winded rants by known crazy people. They are predictably dumb. There's no reason to build upon their errors.

Okay -- that is reasonable. But understand: this is how racism thrives. Silence is being complicit. If the people of FSN want to set the tone of what is acceptable here, I imagine it would start with members speaking out against racism.

I don't think you particularly want people of color here but what if a black person considered joining and saw that racist views are not only tolerated but accepted? This is the power of racism -- it has made this forum a space where people of color feel unwelcome and I'm afraid that might be by design. And it is already happening without having to say, "no blacks", or, "no musilms welcome".

Also note how seemingly inclusive spaces ("florida shooters network", not "white florida shooters network") can be exclusive. This is an example of how deep racism runs -- white people see having these kind of views as the norm.

I lurked here years ago when you guys were openly calling Obama "nigger" etc. I was hoping this place might change after the great reboot but I've already lost faith.

I won't bother you guys again.

mikem wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:30 am

Skoll wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:15 am It's not racist to not want to see your way of life and values upended by a group that a big portion of its adherents think you're subhuman.

White Christians burn, castrate, hang, and shoot people of color who they believe to be sub-human. Are these not real Christians? My point is: any group of people is a cross section of humanity and you have a representatives from across the spectrum. Good people, bad people, etc. Yes, some populations skew in particular directions but I don't think that is the case for American Muslims.

When it comes to *you* and your beliefs about people from particular group: you can choose to deny them their humanness by assuming they're all exactly the same or you can recognize their strengths and faults as you see your own.

Personally I think anyone who believes in any religion is, to some degree, mentally ill but that's another thread.

Every category of humanity has done said things. Religion and politics are like everything else :team sports because we're a highly tribalistic species. That's why you see all the pushback against multiculturalism these days. It's not so much about exclusion imo as it is forced diversity having the opposite effect because people feel that their traditions are being sacrificed on the altar of "inclusivity". You can make a big show and try to publicly shame people about racism this, racism that and yes some people feel actual hatred toward those that are different from them, as has gone on through the entirety of human history, but trying to dog whistle at us here because Group A has made an avowed threat against Group B and Group B isn't going to have that shit is fucking dumb.

Not only are you coming off as extremely self righteous and making a lot of assumptions about the entire board in general based on the text of less than a handful of people, you're also implicitly stating that we're all backwoods hicks because you, personally, are uncomfortable that we're not all dogpiling someone for having an opinion. If that's cause for you to get your panties in a wad and leave the forums, don't let the knob get stuck in your asshole on the way out.

Skoll wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:14 am

mikem wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:30 am

Skoll wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:15 am It's not racist to not want to see your way of life and values upended by a group that a big portion of its adherents think you're subhuman.

White Christians burn, castrate, hang, and shoot people of color who they believe to be sub-human. Are these not real Christians? My point is: any group of people is a cross section of humanity and you have a representatives from across the spectrum. Good people, bad people, etc. Yes, some populations skew in particular directions but I don't think that is the case for American Muslims.

When it comes to *you* and your beliefs about people from particular group: you can choose to deny them their humanness by assuming they're all exactly the same or you can recognize their strengths and faults as you see your own.

Personally I think anyone who believes in any religion is, to some degree, mentally ill but that's another thread.

Every category of humanity has done said things. Religion and politics are like everything else :team sports because we're a highly tribalistic species. That's why you see all the pushback against multiculturalism these days. It's not so much about exclusion imo as it is forced diversity having the opposite effect because people feel that their traditions are being sacrificed on the altar of "inclusivity". You can make a big show and try to publicly shame people about racism this, racism that and yes some people feel actual hatred toward those that are different from them, as has gone on through the entirety of human history, but trying to dog whistle at us here because Group A has made an avowed threat against Group B and Group B isn't going to have that shit is fucking dumb.

Not only are you coming off as extremely self righteous and making a lot of assumptions about the entire board in general based on the text of less than a handful of people, you're also implicitly stating that we're all backwoods hicks because you, personally, are uncomfortable that we're not all dogpiling someone for having an opinion. If that's cause for you to get your panties in a wad and leave the forums, don't let the knob get stuck in your asshole on the way out.

Oy -- I'm back in!

So you're litterally dogpiling on me for speaking out AGAINST racism but you're happy to be silent in the face of actual racism. That reveals your values. And I've been around here a lot longer that most.

And it isn't about having my panties in a wad -- it is about being around people with whom I share values. I enjoy shooting but someone forgot to put "racist" in the domain name.

And I'm not calling you backwoods hicks. I've met many of you, shot with you, eaten with you. You don't have to be a backwoods hick to accept racism, hold racist views, etc. You know that.

Lol. You did more than "lurk" last time. And I guess you can't help yourself now.

I won't bother you guys again. Maybe I'll stop by in the next iteration.

What are you, some kind of snowflake? I believe this place is tolerant of all views, including yours. Being Muslim is not a race, Muslims come in all colors and nationalities.

I seriously doubt that there are any white supremacists in here. But if you feel you have to leave and go cry in a "safe space" then go and don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

tector wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:20 am Lol. You did more than "lurk" last time. And I guess you can't help yourself now.

just trying to keep it real. really, i'll bow out now. i really had faith as a black person that people in this community would be better.

gforester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:22 am

I won't bother you guys again. Maybe I'll stop by in the next iteration.

What are you, some kind of snowflake? I believe this place is tolerant of all views, including yours. Being Muslim is not a race, Muslims come in all colors and nationalities.

I seriously doubt that there are any white supremacists in here. But if you feel you have to leave and go cry in a "safe space" then go and don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Look up the people who made the video on the first page. Read firemedic's post stating that HE IS A RACIST. You may tolerate all views but in my opinion, those views should not be tolerated anywhere.

Why do you mention my views as though they are extreme? "Even yours" as though asking you guys to please not be racist is extreme.

mikem wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:23 am

gforester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:22 am

I won't bother you guys again. Maybe I'll stop by in the next iteration.

What are you, some kind of snowflake? I believe this place is tolerant of all views, including yours. Being Muslim is not a race, Muslims come in all colors and nationalities.

I seriously doubt that there are any white supremacists in here. But if you feel you have to leave and go cry in a "safe space" then go and don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Look up the people who made the video on the first page. Read firemedic's post stating that HE IS A RACIST.

I did not look at the video, nor do I care to. I suppose that sometimes firemedic goes on a rant when he doesn't take his meds. While I often don't agree with what he or some others say I don't let it offend me.

The first amendment gives all Americans the right of free speech, even speech some don't agree with. Firemedic did not advocate violence against anyone or any race or religion. He didn't call for murdering or lynching anyone of any color. He simply stated his views on the Muslim religion as is his right.

I suppose you are in favor of all the social media platforms that are selectively blocking conservatives too, since they are calling out racists? But, by your accusation that we are all racists here because of what one member said is no better than lumping all Muslims or all blacks together and stereotyping them racially.

mikem wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:18 am

Skoll wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:14 am

mikem wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:30 am
White Christians burn, castrate, hang, and shoot people of color who they believe to be sub-human. Are these not real Christians? My point is: any group of people is a cross section of humanity and you have a representatives from across the spectrum. Good people, bad people, etc. Yes, some populations skew in particular directions but I don't think that is the case for American Muslims.

When it comes to *you* and your beliefs about people from particular group: you can choose to deny them their humanness by assuming they're all exactly the same or you can recognize their strengths and faults as you see your own.

Personally I think anyone who believes in any religion is, to some degree, mentally ill but that's another thread.

Every category of humanity has done said things. Religion and politics are like everything else :team sports because we're a highly tribalistic species. That's why you see all the pushback against multiculturalism these days. It's not so much about exclusion imo as it is forced diversity having the opposite effect because people feel that their traditions are being sacrificed on the altar of "inclusivity". You can make a big show and try to publicly shame people about racism this, racism that and yes some people feel actual hatred toward those that are different from them, as has gone on through the entirety of human history, but trying to dog whistle at us here because Group A has made an avowed threat against Group B and Group B isn't going to have that shit is fucking dumb.

Not only are you coming off as extremely self righteous and making a lot of assumptions about the entire board in general based on the text of less than a handful of people, you're also implicitly stating that we're all backwoods hicks because you, personally, are uncomfortable that we're not all dogpiling someone for having an opinion. If that's cause for you to get your panties in a wad and leave the forums, don't let the knob get stuck in your asshole on the way out.

Oy -- I'm back in!

So you're litterally dogpiling on me for speaking out AGAINST racism but you're happy to be silent in the face of actual racism. That reveals your values. And I've been around here a lot longer that most.

And it isn't about having my panties in a wad -- it is about being around people with whom I share values. I enjoy shooting but someone forgot to put "racist" in the domain name.

And I'm not calling you backwoods hicks. I've met many of you, shot with you, eaten with you. You don't have to be a backwoods hick to accept racism, hold racist views, etc. You know that.

I'm not dogpiling you, I'm simply explaining the why fors of some peoples behaviors. People are gonna start dogpiling you for wanting to silence firemedic though for stating his opinions.

Personally, I don't give a shit either way, if someone wants to go full 14 words, I'll do what I always do and just ignore said person. Just because what they're saying is disgusting and hateful doesn't mean they don't have a right to say it, that's the double bladed sword of free speech. I can understand you may even feel uncomfortable that said person is allowed to express said views. I get the same way when I listen to someone tell me I'm evil just because I'm white and white people have done X,Y,Z. But I also ignore those assholes because they're not worth engaging and in the end, are self defeating.

Everyone has biases and opinions, like assholes. We're going to express said things usually in a non politically correct manner. At the end of the day though that doesn't mean any of us are gonna look down on you or think you "less than". Shit, some of these guys post shit on the regular I think is paranoid delusional but I don't let it get to me because this is above all else, a discussion forum and discussion should not be censored.

So --

This isn't about the first amendment as you know. The first amendment doesn't have anything to do with private communications. I'm not suggesting that the government censor or limit your thoughts or communications.

What I'm saying is that:

First, racism is, I thought, socially unacceptable. Personally, it is incompatible with my safety, the safety of my family, my prosperity, happiness, etc. So racism does make a space unsafe -- call me a snowflake if you will.

Second, the notion I'm speaking to is that we (or you really) as a group set the tone and standard for what type of speech is acceptable here. You're the ones building the community. You as forum members choose which posts to respond to and how. So as a person of color, what I would have hoped is that someone else would have spoken up a long time ago and said, "wait -- this isn't right," or "this isn't who we are," or, "this isn't acceptable."

Notice that this didn't happen at all. Notice who's opinions you did choose to challenge and insult. Notice your response and realize what kind of tone you're setting and the kind of values you're reflecting.

Please don't confuse limiting speech with my desire that you speak out when someone says something that is harmful to me; when someone says something that (again, at least I think) is abhorrent.

Think about the amount of energy that has gone into "tut tut"ing me, but no one has said anything about how an open, admitted, racist posted videos made by open, vocal, admitted racists. That is the thing that worries me and that is why this is not a safe place for people of color -- whether they shoot or not.

It only takes one person -- one white person -- to stand up for what is right. As a person of color, I will always be seen as aggrieved or angry just for defending my existence. If, as gun owners, you were truly the "good guys" you claim to be, this thread would have played out differently.

My fear is that your values actually align more closely with firemedic's than you let on.