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I always said they would come after the arm brace.... Q, honey badger S & D from ATF
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:49 pm
by rentprop1
if you have a Q Honey Badger, ATF just ordered a C & D...here is a link
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https://www.liveqordie.com/wp-content/u ... inks-1.pdf
Re: I always said they would come after the arm brace.... Q, honey badger S & D from ATF
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:21 pm
by cvasqu03
And so it begins.
Re: I always said they would come after the arm brace.... Q, honey badger S & D from ATF
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:24 pm
by neverenoughguns
What makes this pistol more like a sbr than other ar type pistols?
Re: I always said they would come after the arm brace.... Q, honey badger S & D from ATF
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:27 pm
by Tenzing_Norgay
neverenoughguns wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:24 pm
What makes this pistol more like a sbr than other ar type pistols?
^This. What makes this different than any other pistol/brace?!
Re: I always said they would come after the arm brace.... Q, honey badger S & D from ATF
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:35 pm
by rentprop1
Tenzing_Norgay wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:27 pm
neverenoughguns wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:24 pm
What makes this pistol more like a sbr than other ar type pistols?
^This. What makes this different than any other pistol/brace?!
Im sure the ATF will be along shortly and tell us why.
Well I can't believe it's the people that would pay $169 for a new SBA 3, when a F1 to SBR is only 30 bucks more and you dont have a questionable ghey brace on it.
Re: I always said they would come after the arm brace.... Q, honey badger S & D from ATF
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:40 pm
by Big_mike
Tenzing_Norgay wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:27 pm
neverenoughguns wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:24 pm
What makes this pistol more like a sbr than other ar type pistols?
^This. What makes this different than any other pistol/brace?!
With the brace fully extended, the firearm has a 13" LOP and a 23" OAL.
I don't know why exactly this crosses a line, but from what I'm reading the 13" LOP and sub 26" OAL make this firearm different. I think the gist is their pistol brace is longer than others, carbine length with respect to LOP, and therefore is intended to be shouldered.
My AR pistol with SBPDW brace and 10.5" BBL is has a 12.5" LOP and 28.5" OAL fully extended. Collapsed measurements are 10" LOP and 26" OAL.
Re: I always said they would come after the arm brace.... Q, honey badger S & D from ATF
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:10 pm
by Tenzing_Norgay
Big_mike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:40 pm
Tenzing_Norgay wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:27 pm
neverenoughguns wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:24 pm
What makes this pistol more like a sbr than other ar type pistols?
^This. What makes this different than any other pistol/brace?!
With the brace fully extended, the firearm has a 13" LOP and a 23" OAL.
I don't know why exactly this crosses a line, but from what I'm reading the 13" LOP and sub 26" OAL make this firearm different. I think the gist is their pistol brace is longer than others, carbine length with respect to LOP, and therefore is intended to be shouldered.
My AR pistol with SBPDW brace and 10.5" BBL is has a 12.5" LOP and 28.5" OAL fully extended. Collapsed measurements are 10" LOP and 26" OAL.
Yeah, the 26" rule has to do with the difference between "pistol" and "firearm".
The jibber-jabber seems to be focusing on the LOP and the "proprietary" design of the brace.
From the 'net:
From reading the letter, the Q uses a proprietary pistol brace on the Honey Badger, Sugar Weasel, and Mini Fix. The BATFE isn’t accepting as not designed to be fired from the shoulder, so they’re rifles, not pistols. In other words, they’re ruling it a stock instead of a pistol brace. There’s no explanation of why they consider it designed to be fired from the shoulder. Since the overall length is less than 26″ and the barrels are less than 16″, both lengths classify them as SBRs. As pistols, there would be no minimum requirements for barrel or overall length. This isn’t a ruling against pistol braces — just this particular design of pistol brace. Had they used an SB15 or other already approved pistol brace, they would have been ruled as pistols.
Reply
avatarTex300BLK says:
October 6, 2020 at 16:30
Sugar Weasel uses an otherwise commonly available SBA-3 model from SB-Tactical special made for Q in their Grey color to match their guns.
Reply
avatarFedUp says:
October 6, 2020 at 17:03
Having now seen pictures of the back end of a Honey Badger, it does look more like a shoulder brace than a forearm brace. But what’s the objective standard for the shape of the back face of these things?
Discussion at arfcom seems to hinge on the fact that the LOP is over 13″, like a man sized shoulder stock. The pics I’ve seen must be of one that’s retracted, because it doesn’t look 13″ to me.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html? ... ger-Pistol
Reply
avatarOlivia says:
October 6, 2020 at 18:28
Well, they did the same thing with the Fostech SBV and they used a standard, off the shelf brace. The cherry-picking of who they “decide” against, well after many sales is interesting.
Nothing about the BATFE makes sense.
Re: I always said they would come after the arm brace.... Q, honey badger S & D from ATF
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:23 pm
by Tenzing_Norgay
Measuring Up the LOP and OAL
Jeff also explained that the length of pull (LOP) needs to be kept in mind when building a pistol. The LOP is measured in a straight line from the face of the trigger to the rear of the brace. The rear of the brace is taken at its most extended position (if adjustable). “The ATF has advised that a braced pistol with a length of pull in excess of 13.5 inches may constitute a re-design of the brace into a stock.”
In addition to length of pull, overall length (OAL) should be measured. OAL is considered the muzzle — minus removable muzzle devices — to the rear of the brace (either collapsed or folded to be in its shortest form). “An OAL greater than 26 inches [has the potential to change] the classification of pistol to firearm. Firearms in excess of 26 inches OAL may have vertical grips installed and remain non-NFA. Pistols with vertical grips installed sub-26 inches OAL [can be] considered AOW and are subject to the NFA,” Jeff said.
In addition, “ATF is now advising that foregrips — angled or otherwise — may not be used on pistol builds.” Jeff also noted that those building AR and all large-framed or PDW pistols should be aware of states or jurisdictions that differ from federal law in definition and application. This means always check before transporting your AR-15 pistol into another jurisdiction.
Re: I always said they would come after the arm brace.... Q, honey badger S & D from ATF
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:28 pm
by Tenzing_Norgay
Re: I always said they would come after the arm brace.... Q, honey badger S & D from ATF
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:32 pm
by Big_mike
Tenzing_Norgay wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:23 pm
Measuring Up the LOP and OAL
Jeff also explained that the length of pull (LOP) needs to be kept in mind when building a pistol. The LOP is measured in a straight line from the face of the trigger to the rear of the brace. The rear of the brace is taken at its most extended position (if adjustable). “The ATF has advised that a braced pistol with a length of pull in excess of 13.5 inches may constitute a re-design of the brace into a stock.”
In addition to length of pull, overall length (OAL) should be measured. OAL is considered the muzzle — minus removable muzzle devices — to the rear of the brace (either collapsed or folded to be in its shortest form). “An OAL greater than 26 inches [has the potential to change] the classification of pistol to firearm. Firearms in excess of 26 inches OAL may have vertical grips installed and remain non-NFA. Pistols with vertical grips installed sub-26 inches OAL [can be] considered AOW and are subject to the NFA,” Jeff said.
In addition, “ATF is now advising that foregrips — angled or otherwise — may not be used on pistol builds.” Jeff also noted that those building AR and all large-framed or PDW pistols should be aware of states or jurisdictions that differ from federal law in definition and application. This means always check before transporting your AR-15 pistol into another jurisdiction.
Interesting. Where did you find this?